Topic: Kozan Tadao rework discussion

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This topic was closed by Yuudai
  Posted on February 8, 2012 at 5:51 PM
1 thumbs up
#1
Yuudai, Savior

Contribution: 1,233 (813 + 420)
Joined: January 21, 2010
I’ve decided to separate the Tadao discussion from the rest of the balance discussion to keep things more organized. These are the three versions we have come up with until now. Which do you prefer and why?

Version 1

Cursed Diamond
Affects Tadao with Cursed Diamond infinitely, disabling stuns, granting Tadao 1 Cursed Diamond charge each turn and dealing 5 affliction damage to Tadao for every Cursed Diamond charge each turn. This skill toggles. All Cursed Diamond charges are removed when this skill ends.
tactic, instant
1 rnd
cooldown 1


Glass Cutter
Tadao deals 25 melee damage to one enemy. Each Cursed Diamond charge increases damage dealt by this skill by 5.
melee, instant
1 str
cooldown 0


Desperation
Requires Tadao with 50 or less health points. Tadao deals 20 melee damage to all enemies, killing Tadao. Each Cursed Diamond charge increases damage dealt by this skill by 5.
melee, instant
1 str, 1 rnd
cooldown 0


This makes Tadao a pure suicide character with high damage out put. I like the focus of this setup and its uniqueness. We can tweak Desperation’s damage to balance him. I believe it is also an option to have Desperation not kill Tadao.


Version 2

Cursed Diamond
Affects Tadao with Cursed Diamond infinitely, disabling stuns, granting Tadao 1 Cursed Diamond charge each turn and dealing 5 affliction damage to Tadao for every Cursed Diamond charge each turn. Cursed Diamond ends and its charges are removed when Tadao performs Desperation.
tactic, instant
1 rnd
cooldown 1


Glass Cutter
Tadao deals 25 melee damage to one enemy. Each Cursed Diamond charge increases damage dealt by this skill by 5.
melee, instant
1 str
cooldown 0


Desperation
Requires Tadao with 50 or less health points. Reduces melee and ranged damage dealt to Tadao by 15 infinitely. During this time, if an enemy performs a melee or ranged skill on Tadao, 15 melee damage is dealt to that enemy. Desperation ends if Tadao has more than 50 health points.
melee, instant
1 str
cooldown 1


This gives Tadao a life after Cursed Diamond. What I like about this version is the challenge of keeping tadao alive under 50 health points to get the best out of him.


Version 3

Cursed Diamond
Affects Tadao with Cursed Diamond infinitely, disabling stuns, granting Tadao 1 Cursed Diamond charge each turn and dealing 5 affliction damage to Tadao for every Cursed Diamond charge each turn. Cursed Diamond ends and its charges are removed when Tadao performs Desperation.
tactic, instant
1 rnd
cooldown 1


Glass Cutter
Tadao deals 25 melee damage to one enemy. Each Cursed Diamond charge increases damage dealt by this skill by 5.
melee, instant
1 str
cooldown 0


Desperation
Requires Tadao with 50 or less health points. Tadao deals 10 piercing melee damage to all enemies, making him invulnerable for 1 turn. Each Cursed Diamond charge increases damage dealt by this skill by 5. Cursed diamond ends and all its charges are removed.
melee, instant
1 str, 1 rnd
cooldown 1


This last version also gives Tadao more survivability, but stays closer to the first version of the rework. The Piercing damage on Desperation is optional, and the amount can also be changed.
  Posted on February 8, 2012 at 6:04 PM
#2
Sand_Spirit, The Trueborn Elite

Contribution: 1,958 (1,725 + 233)
Joined: March 3, 2010
I would like to see a combo of 1st and 3rd versions.
I want him to kill himself, because it's awesome and very unique.
But also, I want him to deal piercing damage.

That's all by me for now. I hope someone will support me.
  Posted on February 8, 2012 at 6:11 PM
#3
lucaslost, The Lost Wolf of the Winter

Contribution: 1,633 (1,374 + 259)
Joined: March 4, 2010
Version 2 is the one I like the most honestly, but I don't know if it'd be good for him. I mean, he's low on stats, so he should have some fancy spike design, not a complicated one so people start using him.

I have therefore chosen version 3, because I don't like the idea of
self-killing, no matter how unique or cool that is.

Btw, no piercing damage.

X-X-X-X-X-X-X-X
R.I.P. Malena Chevy ~♥
  Posted on February 8, 2012 at 6:14 PM
#4
bekaten, The Almighty Mistress of Death

Contribution: 156 (141 + 15)
Joined: February 12, 2011
I dont like these changes but if i must choose, then the second version. However i dont understand why he needs a rework. I dont play whit these game so much now, so u know, but i think WoN needs a char like tadao
  Posted on February 8, 2012 at 6:17 PM
#5
crazymonkey3, The Dark Kid of Death

Contribution: 2,379 (2,124 + 255)
Joined: February 21, 2010
i have said it from the firs time you said it. number 1. i vote for number 1!
No sign for now
  Posted on February 8, 2012 at 6:36 PM
#6
ocnarb, The Dark Demon of the Moon

Contribution: 55 (36 + 19)
Joined: February 19, 2010
Why not make glass cutter 25 piercing damage and during cursed diamond 35 piercing?

I think it's a nice boost, and the game have few piercing skills.
  Posted on February 8, 2012 at 7:16 PM
#7
Sakura-Chan-Ship, The Drunken Sister

Contribution: 625 (510 + 115)
Joined: February 16, 2010
I'm sort of confused on the first one. What if you queue the skills in the order in which you use Desperation and then some sort of health pot or the other way around. Would it still work? If it still works I'm totally up for version 1 as it seems really fun and gives the game a new taste to it.

<3 <3 <3 - Anon
The love is strong in this sig. <3
  Posted on February 8, 2012 at 7:19 PM
#8
crazymonkey3, The Dark Kid of Death

Contribution: 2,379 (2,124 + 255)
Joined: February 21, 2010
Sakura-Chan-Ship wrote:

I'm sort of confused on the first one. What if you queue the skills in the order in which you use Desperation and then some sort of health pot or the other way around. Would it still work? If it still works I'm totally up for version 1 as it seems really fun and gives the game a new taste to it.

No. its the same with jomon. if you kill and ally you cant heal him. so if tadao uses desperation, and then heal him, nothing will happen.
No sign for now
  Posted on February 8, 2012 at 7:22 PM
#9
Sakura-Chan-Ship, The Drunken Sister

Contribution: 625 (510 + 115)
Joined: February 16, 2010
crazymonkey3 wrote:


(...)No. its the same with jomon. if you kill and ally you cant heal him. so if tadao uses desperation, and then heal him, nothing will happen.

Still up for version 1, regardless of queuing :) I mean, version 1 looks way more fun and interesting to try out. Bring some new game play like this!

<3 <3 <3 - Anon
The love is strong in this sig. <3
  Posted on February 8, 2012 at 7:41 PM
#10
Low, The Manipulative Elite

Contribution: 3,950 (3,650 + 300)
Joined: March 20, 2011
Must say I like the second one better. Desperation doesn't kill Tadao, and would serve as a taunt to items like Shurikens Kunai and Tanto.
  Posted on February 8, 2012 at 7:53 PM
#11
_Matt_, The Serving Commander

Contribution: 145 (130 + 15)
Joined: February 6, 2011
I honestly like number 2 better than them all but i don't mind seeing number 1 done. I don't like number 3 all that much though
  Posted on February 8, 2012 at 9:19 PM
#12
DeathShadow, Prisoner

Contribution: 2,145 (1,751 + 394)
Joined: December 18, 2010
I'd think I go for number 1. It's a whole new different kind of gameplay into the game which would be awesome, and he just seems better with it.
  Posted on February 8, 2012 at 9:57 PM
#13
Manjji-Puppet, The Manipulative Elite

Contribution: 1,285 (1,084 + 201)
Joined: February 19, 2010
I personally prefer number 2. A lot of people are saying #1, because it instantly kills him, but while I like suicide-style characters as a thought, I don't feel like that's a good idea for Tadao.

With number 2, he gains some ingenuity in his use with this style. Without heavy spikers, he can still stay alive for a while, and gain some energy to still do some solid damage.

An interesting idea for Desperation in this case would be to make it invisible. After they attacked, it would obviously not matter, but an invisibility until triggered would be cool.

Tadao Graph


Turn 1 | Turn 2 | Turn 3 | Turn 4 | Turn 5 |
|     0     |    35    | 40/75  | 45/120| 50/170| Damage dealt this turn/total damage
|     5     | 10/15  | 15/30  | 20/50 | 25/75  | Self damage this turn/total self damage

*With this chart, you have to remember that it's possible for the enemy to target him too, which would probably prevent him from getting this far.

This follows the simple strategy of using his Cursed Diamond, followed by Glass Cutter each turn precedingly assuming you get 1 strength energy or more each turn. With this, I made the assumption that the player queued everything correctly.

Ultimately, we notice that the net damage (based on characters dealing self affliction this is [damage to enemy - damage to self]) is 25, for 1 strength, no cooldown. Seems fine. Now check overall what you have after 5 turns. 170-75= 95 net damage for 4 strength, 1 random. I'm sorry, but that affliction kills a bit. I like it that way though; just a simple idea to implement: make cursed diamond grant 1 strength energy. This would solve everything, making it roughly cost 3 strength, 1 random to deal a net of 95 damage.

So, in conclusion:
I prefer Version 2
A) make Desperation invisible until triggered
B) make Cursed Diamond additionally grant 1 strength energy (only 1 time)
Also, I'd suggest either A, or more likely B, but not both

For You Zad.
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  Posted on February 8, 2012 at 11:31 PM
#14
love-machine, The Stolen Thief

Contribution: 1,015 (938 + 77)
Joined: March 3, 2010
Like i've stated before, I prefer version 3, provided that you increase the damage to 15 piercing, and maybe just make him invulnerable to melee or ranged, because you can actually kill a team if this skill gives invulnerability. Lets say, you have 2 charges (My assumption is mostly he will have 2 charges)...thats 25 piercing. then you go invul, then use it again for 15 (Assuming you've increased the damage). Add Asami to the mix and you have 55 AoE piercing damage.
  Posted on February 8, 2012 at 11:37 PM
#15
Roach, The Masked Samurai of the Red Dawn

Contribution: 1,303 (1,108 + 195)
Joined: February 17, 2010
Version 1: The best suggestion hands down.

Slightly underpowered. If the base damage were to be increased slightly on Desperation, this would be the most balanced.

Version 2: Unoriginal, boring, bland. Need I go on?

In addition to being poorly thought out, it's extremely OP.

Version 3: Another step in the right direction, but still not as good as version 1.

Whatever you do, do not increase the base damage from 10 piercing. People in this forum/community underestimate the harshness of piercing damage.


Don't pick version 2, that's all I want to say.