I sy version three it's a little better than 1. And 2 is ok I guess but the piercing is were it's all at.

Version 1 is the best but a little UP.

Version 1 is the best but a little UP.

I can surely agree to that. If only Desperation left Tadao at 5 HP... that would be much better.

Why don't people think piercing AoE + instantly killed after use is the best combo? Surely it's a good way to give him something strong and still be fair since he will be killed by doing something powerful rather than survive the ordeal.

Why don't people think piercing AoE + instantly killed after use is the best combo? Surely it's a good way to give him something strong and still be fair since he will be killed by doing something powerful rather than survive the ordeal.

Piercing AoE damage should NOT be underestimated, especially in a game with so few piercing.

(...)Piercing AoE damage should NOT be underestimated, especially in a game with so few piercing.

Well, I'd give Tadao that piercing in his AoE if he were to die doing it. I'd rather have Tadao die in Desperation rather than lose all his stacks and have about less than 50% life anyways just to do a menial AoE anyone can reduce.

What is with you and wanting to make sure Tadao stays alive for so frikkin long?

No character should kill himself in only 6 turns. Even Kurai still takes 10 turns to kill himself.

Your suggestion to have him deal 5 self-affliction for every 2 charges was a good idea and I'm actually in favour of it. I think it would be great balance-wise, but I talked to Yuudai and sadly that effect is too complex to code. That's why I'm suggesting a cap of 15 self-affliction. It's codeable and actually kills him faster than he would kill himself when he would deal himself 5 dmg for every 2 charges. (8 turns with the cap, 10 turns when dealing 5 dmg for every 2 charges)

I say version 3, but if we're going to nerf him this much, could we at least remove the cost for Cursed Diamond?

(...)
No character should kill himself in only 6 turns. Even Kurai still takes 10 turns to kill himself.

Your suggestion to have him deal 5 self-affliction for every 2 charges was a good idea and I'm actually in favour of it. I think it would be great balance-wise, but I talked to Yuudai and sadly that effect is too complex to code. That's why I'm suggesting a cap of 15 self-affliction. It's codeable and actually kills him faster than he would kill himself when he would deal himself 5 dmg for every 2 charges. (8 turns with the cap, 10 turns when dealing 5 dmg for every 2 charges)

Concerning your statement of "No character should kill himself in only 6 turns." Is it that wrong to have suicidal characters that can do that in terms of sacrificing well-being enough to deal damage? Right now we lack suicidal characters (high-risk, high-reward) and I don't think Kurai and Yuudai is considered suicidal in my books.

@Galileo: You must not be doing enough math to think that these suggestions are considered a "NERF" to Tadao.

(...)
No character should kill himself in only 6 turns. Even Kurai still takes 10 turns to kill himself.

Your suggestion to have him deal 5 self-affliction for every 2 charges was a good idea and I'm actually in favour of it. I think it would be great balance-wise, but I talked to Yuudai and sadly that effect is too complex to code. That's why I'm suggesting a cap of 15 self-affliction. It's codeable and actually kills him faster than he would kill himself when he would deal himself 5 dmg for every 2 charges. (8 turns with the cap, 10 turns when dealing 5 dmg for every 2 charges)

Damn, always too complex to code.

Mm.. the cap could be a start, but I still think 15 might be a bit too low. I wouldn't mind going 15 first, but if it turns out to be OP, I would suggest maybe increasing the cap to 20.

Piercing AoE damage should NOT be underestimated, especially in a game with so few piercing

That is true, i fully agree. However, Tadao can only access this Piercing AoE (only 10 damage mind you) when he's under 50 Health. A lot of characters/combos that can kill characters with 60 health or less.

That's why I suggested (for version 3) to increase the damage into 15 Piercing HOWEVER only make him invul to melee or ranged. (Or mental ranged or the combination of the three). You can still counter it anyway.

My 2 cents.

Version 1 seems to be the best, imo. Tough I worry it might be a little up.

Version 3 is the second best I think. I just didn't like 2.

Version 1 -> Very interesting indeed, but I just don't like the idea of a rotative skill called Desperation killing the user.

Version 2 -> It makes Desperation a defensive move, that at least make sense to me, but still dont like it.

Version 3 -> I don't think giving AoE piercing damage to a character with a VI that bypass invu is really a good idea at all.

Basically I don't like any of them, but If there is no other choice I vote for a more balanced Version 3.

If you want to change Desperation that much then I give my suggest:

What about making Desperation a chaneling melee skill that deals damge to every character except for Tadao? (Yeah something like Kamiko HellFire Rain) Keeping the HP restriction and disabling glasscutter and Tadao invu while channeling

Version 1 -> Very interesting indeed, but I just don't like the idea of a rotative skill called Desperation killing the user.

Version 2 -> It makes Desperation a defensive move, that at least make sense to me, but still dont like it.

Version 3 -> I don't think giving AoE piercing damage to a character with a VI that bypass invu is really a good idea at all.

Basically I don't like any of them, but If there is no other choice I vote for a more balanced Version 3.

If you want to change Desperation that much then I give my suggest:

What about making Desperation a chaneling melee skill that deals damge to every character except for Tadao? (Yeah something like Kamiko HellFire Rain) Keeping the HP restriction and disabling glasscutter and Tadao invu while channeling

Your suggestion makes no sense as to why it's still considered being named as such.

To me I can stomach the idea of the piercing AoE to a character who can bypass invul and cannot be stunned if said skill (Desperation) would kill them outright. Dying with a bang.

I'm going to say that number one is the best, but add piercing to it.

That version of Tadao would bring something entirely new to the WoN Table, something which I don't think anyone would have seen before, and that's the concept of controlling a character's HP, and not aiming to kill them outright.

For example, you'd want to keep this Tadao at 60 HP or above and aim to take them him out when he becomes less of a threat and I'd love to see just how that would work.