Topic: Kozan Tadao rework discussion

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  Posted on February 9, 2012 at 10:27 PM
#31
jolik, The Diamond Blossom

Contribution: 515 (482 + 33)
Joined: January 27, 2011
I sy version three it's a little better than 1. And 2 is ok I guess but the piercing is were it's all at.
  Posted on February 9, 2012 at 10:37 PM
#32
___10alex10___, The Flaming Monk of Flames

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Version 1 is the best but a little UP.
Never give up!
  Posted on February 9, 2012 at 11:12 PM
#33
Taylor, The Manipulative Tactician of the Darkness

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___10alex10___ wrote:

Version 1 is the best but a little UP.


I can surely agree to that. If only Desperation left Tadao at 5 HP... that would be much better.


Elevation - The Rise of the Mercenary
Show me the gold and I'll show you victory.
  Posted on February 10, 2012 at 12:16 AM
#34
Mirroga, The Twisted Tactician

Contribution: 2,540 (2,265 + 275)
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Why don't people think piercing AoE + instantly killed after use is the best combo? Surely it's a good way to give him something strong and still be fair since he will be killed by doing something powerful rather than survive the ordeal.
  Posted on February 10, 2012 at 12:17 AM
#35
Roach, The Masked Samurai of the Red Dawn

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Mirroga wrote:

Why don't people think piercing AoE + instantly killed after use is the best combo? Surely it's a good way to give him something strong and still be fair since he will be killed by doing something powerful rather than survive the ordeal.

Piercing AoE damage should NOT be underestimated, especially in a game with so few piercing.
  Posted on February 10, 2012 at 6:51 AM
#36
Mirroga, The Twisted Tactician

Contribution: 2,540 (2,265 + 275)
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Roach wrote:


(...)Piercing AoE damage should NOT be underestimated, especially in a game with so few piercing.


Well, I'd give Tadao that piercing in his AoE if he were to die doing it. I'd rather have Tadao die in Desperation rather than lose all his stacks and have about less than 50% life anyways just to do a menial AoE anyone can reduce.
  Posted on February 10, 2012 at 12:18 PM
#37
DutchShinobi, The Cheerful Panda of Death

Contribution: 522 (368 + 154)
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Roach wrote:

What is with you and wanting to make sure Tadao stays alive for so frikkin long?

No character should kill himself in only 6 turns. Even Kurai still takes 10 turns to kill himself.

Your suggestion to have him deal 5 self-affliction for every 2 charges was a good idea and I'm actually in favour of it. I think it would be great balance-wise, but I talked to Yuudai and sadly that effect is too complex to code. That's why I'm suggesting a cap of 15 self-affliction. It's codeable and actually kills him faster than he would kill himself when he would deal himself 5 dmg for every 2 charges. (8 turns with the cap, 10 turns when dealing 5 dmg for every 2 charges)
  Posted on February 10, 2012 at 2:20 PM
#38
Galileo, The Twisted Collector of Ninja Arts

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I say version 3, but if we're going to nerf him this much, could we at least remove the cost for Cursed Diamond?
  Posted on February 10, 2012 at 2:21 PM
#39
Mirroga, The Twisted Tactician

Contribution: 2,540 (2,265 + 275)
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DutchShinobi wrote:


(...)
No character should kill himself in only 6 turns. Even Kurai still takes 10 turns to kill himself.

Your suggestion to have him deal 5 self-affliction for every 2 charges was a good idea and I'm actually in favour of it. I think it would be great balance-wise, but I talked to Yuudai and sadly that effect is too complex to code. That's why I'm suggesting a cap of 15 self-affliction. It's codeable and actually kills him faster than he would kill himself when he would deal himself 5 dmg for every 2 charges. (8 turns with the cap, 10 turns when dealing 5 dmg for every 2 charges)


Concerning your statement of "No character should kill himself in only 6 turns." Is it that wrong to have suicidal characters that can do that in terms of sacrificing well-being enough to deal damage? Right now we lack suicidal characters (high-risk, high-reward) and I don't think Kurai and Yuudai is considered suicidal in my books.

@Galileo: You must not be doing enough math to think that these suggestions are considered a "NERF" to Tadao.
  Posted on February 10, 2012 at 3:54 PM
#40
Roach, The Masked Samurai of the Red Dawn

Contribution: 1,303 (1,108 + 195)
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DutchShinobi wrote:


(...)
No character should kill himself in only 6 turns. Even Kurai still takes 10 turns to kill himself.

Your suggestion to have him deal 5 self-affliction for every 2 charges was a good idea and I'm actually in favour of it. I think it would be great balance-wise, but I talked to Yuudai and sadly that effect is too complex to code. That's why I'm suggesting a cap of 15 self-affliction. It's codeable and actually kills him faster than he would kill himself when he would deal himself 5 dmg for every 2 charges. (8 turns with the cap, 10 turns when dealing 5 dmg for every 2 charges)

Damn, always too complex to code.

Mm.. the cap could be a start, but I still think 15 might be a bit too low. I wouldn't mind going 15 first, but if it turns out to be OP, I would suggest maybe increasing the cap to 20.
  Posted on February 11, 2012 at 3:32 AM
#41
love-machine, The Stolen Thief

Contribution: 1,015 (938 + 77)
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roach wrote:

Piercing AoE damage should NOT be underestimated, especially in a game with so few piercing


That is true, i fully agree. However, Tadao can only access this Piercing AoE (only 10 damage mind you) when he's under 50 Health. A lot of characters/combos that can kill characters with 60 health or less.

That's why I suggested (for version 3) to increase the damage into 15 Piercing HOWEVER only make him invul to melee or ranged. (Or mental ranged or the combination of the three). You can still counter it anyway.

My 2 cents.
  Posted on February 11, 2012 at 5:13 PM
#42
EtherMage, The Swift Wolf of the Ancestors

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Version 1 seems to be the best, imo. Tough I worry it might be a little up.

Version 3 is the second best I think. I just didn't like 2.
  Posted on February 13, 2012 at 9:42 AM
#43
CoolKeldon, The Blue Samurai of the Moon

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Version 1 -> Very interesting indeed, but I just don't like the idea of a rotative skill called Desperation killing the user.

Version 2 -> It makes Desperation a defensive move, that at least make sense to me, but still dont like it.

Version 3 -> I don't think giving AoE piercing damage to a character with a VI that bypass invu is really a good idea at all.

Basically I don't like any of them, but If there is no other choice I vote for a more balanced Version 3.

If you want to change Desperation that much then I give my suggest:

What about making Desperation a chaneling melee skill that deals damge to every character except for Tadao? (Yeah something like Kamiko HellFire Rain) Keeping the HP restriction and disabling glasscutter and Tadao invu while channeling

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  Posted on February 13, 2012 at 1:12 PM
#44
Mirroga, The Twisted Tactician

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CoolKeldon wrote:

Version 1 -> Very interesting indeed, but I just don't like the idea of a rotative skill called Desperation killing the user.

Version 2 -> It makes Desperation a defensive move, that at least make sense to me, but still dont like it.

Version 3 -> I don't think giving AoE piercing damage to a character with a VI that bypass invu is really a good idea at all.

Basically I don't like any of them, but If there is no other choice I vote for a more balanced Version 3.

If you want to change Desperation that much then I give my suggest:

What about making Desperation a chaneling melee skill that deals damge to every character except for Tadao? (Yeah something like Kamiko HellFire Rain) Keeping the HP restriction and disabling glasscutter and Tadao invu while channeling


Your suggestion makes no sense as to why it's still considered being named as such.

To me I can stomach the idea of the piercing AoE to a character who can bypass invul and cannot be stunned if said skill (Desperation) would kill them outright. Dying with a bang.
  Posted on February 13, 2012 at 9:28 PM
#45
TempestTheory, The Crystal Collector

Contribution: 271 (208 + 63)
Joined: October 10, 2011
I'm going to say that number one is the best, but add piercing to it.

That version of Tadao would bring something entirely new to the WoN Table, something which I don't think anyone would have seen before, and that's the concept of controlling a character's HP, and not aiming to kill them outright.

For example, you'd want to keep this Tadao at 60 HP or above and aim to take them him out when he becomes less of a threat and I'd love to see just how that would work.