Topic: Open Balance Discussion

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This topic was closed by Yuudai
  Posted on March 30, 2013 at 8:48 PM
#6901
edwinas5524, The Untouchable Swordsman of the Nobles

Contribution: 2,382 (2,161 + 221)
Joined: February 11, 2011
to vertu... well maybe its unluck, buf jyouzu is one of the best characters I think he's better than toraji...

to roach I don't think black wing should have any more boosts... with black prince idea and DD (darkened dawn)... maybe 5 more damage would be enough, but I guess we should see how things are going in new way...
  Posted on March 30, 2013 at 10:12 PM
#6902
Nestec, Dreamer

Contribution: 1,507 (1,327 + 180)
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Roach wrote:


(...)The current proposal is what I came up with here.


The Black Prince:For the following three turns, Darkened Dawn instantly kills a random enemy and Black Wing deals an additional 5 damage during this time. This skill consumes one Protector of the Seishin stack.
Cost: 2 Randoms.

People seem to like this new Black Prince which affects Darkened Dawn in a positive light, but keeps Black Wing the same. The problem we were having here is whether in the Black Prince if the 5 should be replaced with 10.


Well I can definitely get behind the boost to Black Wing. People are blowing things way out of proportion if they think that it will make Karasu too strong. As I explained earlier, Karasu will need hard momentum to even be able to hit that damage peak.

Activate Black Prince -> Black Wing on a character to deal 25 -> Black Wing on SAME character to deal 30 -> Black Wing on SAME character yet again to deal 35.

If he messes up anywhere in this combo, he won't be able to deal 35 damage. This requires stun protection, guaranteed connection with the target, and consistent green energy. Not impossible, but not very reliable either. So I think it's perfectly balanced.
  Posted on March 30, 2013 at 11:55 PM
#6903
Roach, The Masked Samurai of the Red Dawn

Contribution: 1,303 (1,108 + 195)
Joined: February 17, 2010
Nestec wrote:


(...)

Well I can definitely get behind the boost to Black Wing. People are blowing things way out of proportion if they think that it will make Karasu too strong. As I explained earlier, Karasu will need hard momentum to even be able to hit that damage peak.

Activate Black Prince -> Black Wing on a character to deal 25 -> Black Wing on SAME character to deal 30 -> Black Wing on SAME character yet again to deal 35.

If he messes up anywhere in this combo, he won't be able to deal 35 damage. This requires stun protection, guaranteed connection with the target, and consistent green energy. Not impossible, but not very reliable either. So I think it's perfectly balanced.

I am neutral to which way Black Wing goes. I agree with you and your reasonings, but at the same time, I can see how all of that might become overpowering.

However, at the same time, we must remember the two randoms spent on Black prince before he has any damage output whatsoever.

The rest of my post was this, my concerns and my thoughts overall.

Things to note:

1.) I removed the gaining of an agility energy per turn, because I felt that would be much too strong for an instant random kill that can easily be obtained.

2.) I removed the melee invulnerability mainly for purposes of being able to stun Karasu during this time, as a way of counterplaying Darkened Dawn.

3.) In the same manner, there's no reason for ranged damage dealt to him to be increased when he is no longer invulnerable to melee skills.

4.) With Black Prince being a pre-req for a cost-effective Darkened Dawn, the overall cost for a sure-fire, yet random instant kill would be a total of 5 energies (3 specifics, 2 randoms).

5.) Notice how I decide to leave the Insta-kill at random; a targeted, full health, no string-attached (Like Yuudai's "Instant" kill), instant-kill will never ever be balanced, in my opinion.


Things to consider:

1.) With the guaranteed Agility gain removed, would it feel better to increase the damage of Black Wing from 5 to 10? Or would too many people feel this much too overpowering, as 25 piercing damage for a single specific is no joking matter.

2.) Whether or not it should consume a protector stack. This is a lot tougher to think of, because my version of The Black Prince sacrifices overall utility/drawn-out for quick damage/burning.
  Posted on April 3, 2013 at 8:04 AM
#6904
Zadion, The Twisted Child of Death

Contribution: 1,077 (757 + 320)
Joined: February 22, 2010
Roach wrote:

As of 8 months ago (Over half a year), the only character I personally put below Karasu was Daiki. Even 8 months ago, it was obvious that Karasu is garbage.


I would just like to add that Daiki is at least an excellent swap character. Can we say the same for Karasu?

Nope.

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  Posted on April 4, 2013 at 1:18 AM
#6905
Roach, The Masked Samurai of the Red Dawn

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Joined: February 17, 2010
Zadion wrote:


(...)

I would just like to add that Daiki is at least an excellent swap character. Can we say the same for Karasu?

Nope.

I also noted that a long time ago, yes.

However, I don't think that being an effective swap character means a character is balanced overall.
  Posted on April 4, 2013 at 11:52 PM
#6906
VertuHonagan, The Old Samurai of the Ancients

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Joined: February 17, 2010
I don't ever swap so I don't think of swap as being effective either. That is why some characters like Niwa and Daiki are on my list.
  Posted on April 5, 2013 at 2:32 AM
#6907
Nestec, Dreamer

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Roach wrote:


(...)I also noted that a long time ago, yes.

However, I don't think that being an effective swap character means a character is balanced overall.


Although it certainly still makes Daiki better than Karasu.
  Posted on April 5, 2013 at 5:11 PM
#6908
Roach, The Masked Samurai of the Red Dawn

Contribution: 1,303 (1,108 + 195)
Joined: February 17, 2010
Nestec wrote:


(...)

Although it certainly still makes Daiki better than Karasu.

As a swap character, yes. I agree.

However, as a stand alone character, Daiki is the last person I'd ever take, personally.
  Posted on April 5, 2013 at 9:05 PM
1 thumbs up
#6909
Nestec, Dreamer

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Don’t get me wrong, I think Daiki is bad. But he brings way more to the table than Karasu does.

Daiki is situationally effective, and I’m not talking about swaps. I mean that in the right teams and the right moments, he can really be nasty for the opponent (wall teams, counter locks, etc.). Karasu can’t do nearly as many tricky things as Daiki can. And definitely not as reliably.
  Posted on April 5, 2013 at 10:30 PM
1 thumbs up
#6910
Zadion, The Twisted Child of Death

Contribution: 1,077 (757 + 320)
Joined: February 22, 2010
Nestec wrote:

Don’t get me wrong, I think Daiki is bad. But he brings way more to the table than Karasu does.

Daiki is situationally effective, and I’m not talking about swaps. I mean that in the right teams and the right moments, he can really be nasty for the opponent (wall teams, counter locks, etc.). Karasu can’t do nearly as many tricky things as Daiki can. And definitely not as reliably.


Karasu is far more one-dimensional than Daiki.

Daiki's problem is that he is decimated by one simple swap: Yuzuki. If you see Daiki in the opponent's team, just swap her in and your chance of victory shoots up to over 90%.

However, this assumes that all players will swap in Yuzuki or even swap at all. In the right teams, Daiki is a highly valuable asset which can protect high priority characters which need time to build up their attacks (Ryu, Nori). His counter is hyper situational but rarely useless, as the metagame is still centered towards melee characters anyway.

Ultimately, using Daiki as a central part of your team can work wonders, but it also requires using him intelligently. It means knowing when his skills will not be of great use and swapping him out accordingly. And, like Kamiko, his usability skyrockets if he is hidden so the opponent cannot swap in Yuzuki against him.

Daiki is not a golden character, but he still has his use. Even as a stand alone character, I think Daiki is definitely better than Karasu.

hello, it's me. i was wondering if after all these years you'd like to meet