Topic: ::The Troller's Way [Day 2]

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  Posted on July 29, 2013 at 2:51 AM
#31
Manjji-Puppet, The Manipulative Elite

Contribution: 1,285 (1,084 + 201)
Joined: February 19, 2010
Theslimer3 wrote:

Oh grow up. A no-lynch has nothing to do with scumminess. What someone find to be true is what someone finds to be true.

Though I do find what Manjji said to be scummy. A "cop stating what his reads are" is not what we want so early. Especially when mafia could easily kill him off


There is a doc role. Also note that with the 'stop the cop/doc/vig' that prevents a kill from the mafia, so they can't stop the doc, and then kill the cop.

Of course the role-blocker comes into play, granted I don't think mafia would kill cop right away anyways.

Granted this game has more players than the standard set-up, the longer the cop waits to reveal, the higher the chance that a mafia kill (or bad vig-shot for that matter) would eliminate the cop, and it would all be a waste.

So I've revise what I said.
If the cop gets a guilty read, then we can probably hope/expect for him or her to reveal. With that, we can try to connect the dots to give hints as to the other mafia.

In the situation of a cop CC, it's safe to say the cop wouldn't be killed until later, otherwise the CC would be obvious as mafia, and all of the cop's claims would be confirmed, leading to most likely an end game eventually.

Marios, you are annoying me. Mainly because you are playing like Ragi normally does. Which annoys me. Granted he has his reasons, but it's still annoying.

I wasn't trying to rush a NL, but that'll be my end vote, so I thought I'd just put it out there. Unless someone claims mafia (which I'm assuming won't happen), we've got no basis for any lynch.

MariosDNA wrote:


(...)

Are you a townie?


To answer this question so I don't get a:

"Oh, you didn't answer my question! You're mafia!"

Thrown at me, I am townsided.

Also, Marios, let's hear you claim town-side with Red Truth. I'd like to get that out of the way.

For You Zad.
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  Posted on July 29, 2013 at 2:53 AM
#32
Manjji-Puppet, The Manipulative Elite

Contribution: 1,285 (1,084 + 201)
Joined: February 19, 2010
What I meant to say was:

I wasn't trying to rush a NL, but that'll be my end vote, so I thought I'd just put it out there. Unless someone claims mafia (which I'm assuming won't happen), we've got no reliable basis for any lynch.

For You Zad.
My Skin Showcase
  Posted on July 29, 2013 at 2:55 AM
#33
MariosDNA, The Flaming Commander of the Honoo

Contribution: 524 (448 + 76)
Joined: January 28, 2011
Manjji-Puppet wrote:


(...)

There is a doc role. Also note that with the 'stop the cop/doc/vig' that prevents a kill from the mafia, so they can't stop the doc, and then kill the cop.

Of course the role-blocker comes into play, granted I don't think mafia would kill cop right away anyways.

Granted this game has more players than the standard set-up, the longer the cop waits to reveal, the higher the chance that a mafia kill (or bad vig-shot for that matter) would eliminate the cop, and it would all be a waste.

So I've revise what I said.
If the cop gets a guilty read, then we can probably hope/expect for him or her to reveal. With that, we can try to connect the dots to give hints as to the other mafia.

In the situation of a cop CC, it's safe to say the cop wouldn't be killed until later, otherwise the CC would be obvious as mafia, and all of the cop's claims would be confirmed, leading to most likely an end game eventually.

Marios, you are annoying me. Mainly because you are playing like Ragi normally does. Which annoys me. Granted he has his reasons, but it's still annoying.

I wasn't trying to rush a NL, but that'll be my end vote, so I thought I'd just put it out there. Unless someone claims mafia (which I'm assuming won't happen), we've got no basis for any lynch.


(...)

To answer this question so I don't get a:

"Oh, you didn't answer my question! You're mafia!"

Thrown at me, I am townsided.

Also, Marios, let's hear you claim town-side with Red Truth. I'd like to get that out of the way.


No problem, mafioso.

[red] My role is townie-sided [/red]
...
  Posted on July 29, 2013 at 2:57 AM
#34
Manjji-Puppet, The Manipulative Elite

Contribution: 1,285 (1,084 + 201)
Joined: February 19, 2010
MariosDNA wrote:


(...)

No problem, mafioso.

[red] My role is townie-sided [/red]


Okay, sounds good.
So, if you ever got a mafia role, would you just refuse to use the Red Truth?

For You Zad.
My Skin Showcase
  Posted on July 29, 2013 at 2:58 AM
#35
Chas3_Th3_Dr3am, Dreamer of the Ancestors

Contribution: 2,354 (2,097 + 257)
Joined: January 14, 2011
Aggressive Marios is getting aggressive.
Check out my Soundcloud!

Rainbows, sunshine. Everywhere we go.
  Posted on July 29, 2013 at 2:58 AM
#36
Theslimer3, The Innocent Kid of the BETA

Contribution: 333 (260 + 73)
Joined: February 24, 2010
I see what you're saying, and I understand. The longer the cop sits on his role, the more likely he is to be killed.

But that works both ways. The earlier he claims, the more likely he is to be targeted more. Remember, the person holding the Vig card could accidently hit the doc. Where does that lead us? A cop claimed and no one to protect him.

And before you bring up the likelyhood of him being hit, lets consider something:
Mafia can kill, and the Vig can kill. The Mafia probably will hit someone they see to be more doctor or coplike, and the vig will hit someone acting scummy. If you've payed attention last game, the scummiest weren't even scum. And this game could very well be the same.

So your thoughts on this?
  Posted on July 29, 2013 at 3:00 AM
#37
Theslimer3, The Innocent Kid of the BETA

Contribution: 333 (260 + 73)
Joined: February 24, 2010
MariosDNA wrote:


(...)

No problem, mafioso.

[red] My role is townie-sided [/red]

Stop that, that's why we killed you last game
  Posted on July 29, 2013 at 3:03 AM
#38
MariosDNA, The Flaming Commander of the Honoo

Contribution: 524 (448 + 76)
Joined: January 28, 2011
Manjji-Puppet wrote:


(...)

Okay, sounds good.
So, if you ever got a mafia role, would you just refuse to use the Red Truth?


Who knows.
...
  Posted on July 29, 2013 at 3:04 AM
#39
MariosDNA, The Flaming Commander of the Honoo

Contribution: 524 (448 + 76)
Joined: January 28, 2011
Theslimer3 wrote:


(...)Stop that, that's why we killed you last game


lol no worries.
...
  Posted on July 29, 2013 at 3:12 AM
#40
Manjji-Puppet, The Manipulative Elite

Contribution: 1,285 (1,084 + 201)
Joined: February 19, 2010
Theslimer3 wrote:


(...)Stop that, that's why we killed you last game


Lol. I still find it funny that he was the cop. Armin was never mentioned in the story, so I just assumed he was a soldier.

Anywho, at what you were saying before:
I think the Vigilante's usefulness really does depend on the experience of the person who has that role. If the person is experienced, they will be an asset to us, if not, they could end killing important town-sided PRs and really mess up our chances of winning.

This also has some duality to it though. The mafia doesn't know who the Vig is either, which will make it harder for them to decide whether or not to stop the kill (and if so, when), and such.

Then you must also remember, the Vig has no clue who is town or mafia, though mafia knows both, just not specific roles. They will at least always hit town, whereas the Vigilante can harm his or her own team/side if you will.

I agree we can't make decisions to fast, because that's how we'll lose this game, but there are many factors that will make it hard to decipher what to do.

To close though, I will say:
A cop that has claimed with one role is more valuable that a cop that has three investigations, but can't share them.

For You Zad.
My Skin Showcase
  Posted on July 29, 2013 at 3:24 AM
#41
MariosDNA, The Flaming Commander of the Honoo

Contribution: 524 (448 + 76)
Joined: January 28, 2011
Manjji, you're a mafia. stop already.
...
  Posted on July 29, 2013 at 3:34 AM
#42
Manjji-Puppet, The Manipulative Elite

Contribution: 1,285 (1,084 + 201)
Joined: February 19, 2010
MariosDNA wrote:

Manjji, you're a mafia. stop already.


Marios, you're annoying. Stop already.

For You Zad.
My Skin Showcase
  Posted on July 29, 2013 at 3:47 AM
#43
Demonkings, The Golden Demon

Contribution: 1,488 (1,318 + 170)
Joined: March 11, 2011
If Marios is lying in red he will get a meaner punishment than losing a mafia game

But I honestly doubt it atm unless there is a secret meaning behind it.
  Posted on July 29, 2013 at 4:47 AM
#44
Chas3_Th3_Dr3am, Dreamer of the Ancestors

Contribution: 2,354 (2,097 + 257)
Joined: January 14, 2011
Sidenote: Can we quit with the lying in red truth thing? It is the most sorry and pathetic excuse to clear your name. It's getting annoying in all honesty.
Manjji wrote:

To close though, I will say:
A cop that has claimed with one role is more valuable that a cop that has three investigations, but can't share them.

Actually, I disagree. Claiming a cop role (and certainly any beneficial townie PR) can cause complications. One, if one person softclaims a role, there is another person willing to do the same. Predictably we will choose one of the two to lynch at night and that's just too big of a risk as we're also ignoring other potential suspects.

Furthermore, a claimed cop brings more attention to him/her likewise someone else said previously. The cop has a chance of not being protected (because the cop may not trust him or is dead) while the mafia are aiming to bring him down or the Vig may kill him on accident.

You see how we're talking on Day 1? We are unveiling information instead of passing this day on by! Isn't it amazing?
Check out my Soundcloud!

Rainbows, sunshine. Everywhere we go.
  Posted on July 29, 2013 at 5:14 AM
#45
Manjji-Puppet, The Manipulative Elite

Contribution: 1,285 (1,084 + 201)
Joined: February 19, 2010
Chas3_Th3_Dr3am wrote:

Sidenote: Can we quit with the lying in red truth thing? It is the most sorry and pathetic excuse to clear your name. It's getting annoying in all honesty.


(...)Actually, I disagree. Claiming a cop role (and certainly any beneficial townie PR) can cause complications. One, if one person softclaims a role, there is another person willing to do the same. Predictably we will choose one of the two to lynch at night and that's just too big of a risk as we're also ignoring other potential suspects.

Furthermore, a claimed cop brings more attention to him/her likewise someone else said previously. The cop has a chance of not being protected (because the cop may not trust him or is dead) while the mafia are aiming to bring him down or the Vig may kill him on accident.

You see how we're talking on Day 1? We are unveiling information instead of passing this day on by! Isn't it amazing?


I think I already stated my point though.

Let's create a scenario:

Person A is real cop
Person B is CC (maf)
Person C is vanilla
Person D is maf.

Person A reveals D to be mafia, whereas B claims C is innocent.
For whatever reason, town votes to lynch A (which would be a bad decision). A cross is almost always a better option, but let's say that's what happened.

That reveals that Person B lied about being a cop, which points to almost 100% mafia. Then, we also know person A's report was correct, and that Person D is mafia. Now we've revealed 2 mafia, at only the partial cost of the cop. As I said, there is the doc.

Now consider the chances of hitting either the role-blocker or role-stopper (that's what I'll call the other mafia role). It's 2/3 chance that we lynch one of them. Remove either one from the equation, and the situation gets better.

If the role-stopper wasn't killed, then they could stop the investigation, or stop the doc. However, if they stop the investigation, they can't kill. They can kill if they stop the save by the doc.

If the role-blocker wasn't killed, they can block the cop. But that's it, because they have no clue (hopefully, unless subtle softclaims were notices) of who the doc is.

Then we also have the Vig kill, and if we know two mafia, the Vig can *attempt to* take out the second known mafia.

Now it's 1:7. With a cop and doc and vig.

This assumes the mafia doesn't kill any of the power roles, and doesn't block the vig (though if they blocked the vig, it would be 2:8, but we could lynch during day easily and we'd actually end up being 1:8). It also assumes the cop gets a guilty read, which isn't necessarily true, but oh well. That's why I said that the cop should wait until they get a guilty before they reveal.

Even if cop can say that:
Person X
Person Y
and Person Z are townies,
This still allows to town to more accurately pinpoint mafia, especially when using the list the CC gave (finally, assuming a CC is present in this situation).

So there's why IMO the cop should claim (at least when they have a guilty).

If I made a mistake somewhere, feel free to point it out. It seems correct though.

For You Zad.
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