Topic: Open Balance Discussion: Reborn

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  Posted on August 12, 2013 at 9:04 AM
1 thumbs up
#31
Ryu, Prisoner

Contribution: 470 (389 + 81)
Joined: January 25, 2011
I think character skills not worth leveling should be focused on. Everyone is finding "the best" character builds, and some characters aren't even having some skills considered because they are too weak compared to the others. I think the skills never considered should get a slight boost, so there is more of a trade off, and so players who do build that way aren't making a mistake.

Personally I couldn't mention any problem skills as I don't play much, just pointing out that others should discuss it.

EDIT
Meant a boost to the lvl 3 version of the skill btw.
  Posted on August 12, 2013 at 11:19 AM
#32
Specas, Challenger of the BETA

Contribution: 15 (9 + 6)
Joined: February 17, 2010
Kudoku is too easy to play against AI. I have no problems beating even hard boss with random 2 other team-members.

AI just bad at responding to his Atonement. And they always prioritize him last, as they should kill him first.

Plus, i sometimes have a bug, where Atonement get stacked to 5 (instead of 3). And it actually makes teammate unkillable for 5 turns.
Alsou, even if teammate is with Atonement, AI still trying to kill or overkill. Like with Yuudai's Execution. And after failing kill a teammate, if i heal that teammate (let's say with Kudokus Guardian's Blessing), AI will spam skills on my undieing teammate again, giving it Atonement stack, to make it undieing again in the future.

Also, as i understand, some get Seika, some get Kudoku in starter pack? Those who get Kudoko (i got Seika), have so much easier time to level up.
  Posted on August 12, 2013 at 11:23 AM
#33
daumis1992, The Relaxed Tactician of the Ancestors

Contribution: 218 (181 + 37)
Joined: February 18, 2010
Ignore this, just forgot about advance button, anyway thanks Specas for mentioning it.
  Posted on August 12, 2013 at 2:41 PM
#34
Specas, Challenger of the BETA

Contribution: 15 (9 + 6)
Joined: February 17, 2010
You can switch skill's execution order if you play in advanced mode, by dragging it.
  Posted on August 12, 2013 at 4:21 PM
#35
Karab, The Fierce Tiger

Contribution: 3,492 (3,159 + 333)
Joined: February 18, 2010
lucaslost wrote:

Hi guys. I currently feel lvl 1 Asami is extremely useless (even with fire arrows, a cooldown of 3 in Calm is ridiculous). So here's my Calm rework idea:


By doing this, level 2 and 3 calms remain the same, while boosting her lvl 1 Calm.


I could not disagree more.
Lvl 1 Asami is one of the most perfectly balanced chars at all levels. Her Lvl 1 moveset forces you to use her more aggressively or else with an item as her primary skill (Kunai with her is deadly), but she can still be used defensively with devestating effect (Small or Medium HP + Kudoku = Winning at any difficulty)

Basically, she forces players to start considering items and synergy in team building, which is brilliant for newer players
-----------germ---------another germ---------------
-----------GERMS ALL OVER THE PLACE---------
Oh Look at that, looks like there's SO MANY MOD GERMS
Okay, who the flower's the smartass

Now THAT's just being a precious flower.

I am going to slam a lovely rainbow flower into your beautiful face you flower
  Posted on August 12, 2013 at 4:31 PM
#36
crazymonkey3, The Dark Kid of Death

Contribution: 2,379 (2,124 + 255)
Joined: February 21, 2010
Anybody else think Amaya's protector sucks?

Level 1: 25 DD 4 CD
Level 2: 25 DD, renews, 4 CD
Level 3: 35 DD, renews, 4 CD

Its absolutly worthless to upgrade that skill. Maybe make it so that level 2 and 3 switch places (meaning it renews on level 3). Cause right now who needs renewing when it has a 4 cd. Most skill are able to take it down in 1 turn and not to mention the fact her protector comes BEFORE battle armor if she has it.
No sign for now
  Posted on August 12, 2013 at 4:39 PM
#37
Karab, The Fierce Tiger

Contribution: 3,492 (3,159 + 333)
Joined: February 18, 2010
crazymonkey3 wrote:

Anybody else think Amaya's protector sucks?

Level 1: 25 DD 4 CD
Level 2: 25 DD, renews, 4 CD
Level 3: 35 DD, renews, 4 CD

Its absolutly worthless to upgrade that skill. Maybe make it so that level 2 and 3 switch places (meaning it renews on level 3). Cause right now who needs renewing when it has a 4 cd. Most skill are able to take it down in 1 turn and not to mention the fact her protector comes BEFORE battle armor if she has it.


I was about to disagree, but then I realised that I'd never upgrade that skill over NR or her Counter.

I suppose you could make it so that it gives 25 DD at Lvl three but gives her 5 points of DR while active
Either that or allow it to stack
-----------germ---------another germ---------------
-----------GERMS ALL OVER THE PLACE---------
Oh Look at that, looks like there's SO MANY MOD GERMS
Okay, who the flower's the smartass

Now THAT's just being a precious flower.

I am going to slam a lovely rainbow flower into your beautiful face you flower
  Posted on August 12, 2013 at 4:40 PM
#38
Roach, The Masked Samurai of the Red Dawn

Contribution: 1,303 (1,108 + 195)
Joined: February 17, 2010
Ryu wrote:

I think character skills not worth leveling should be focused on. Everyone is finding "the best" character builds, and some characters aren't even having some skills considered because they are too weak compared to the others. I think the skills never considered should get a slight boost, so there is more of a trade off, and so players who do build that way aren't making a mistake.

Personally I couldn't mention any problem skills as I don't play much, just pointing out that others should discuss it.

EDIT
Meant a boost to the lvl 3 version of the skill btw.

There really is no way to actually solve problems like this, as I mentioned before that levels were intricately and ORIGINALLY designed to intertwine with each other up until all the skills eventually maxed out, and THEN were boosted through offensive and defensive trainings.


I'll give you a skill, and I'll probably give you a radical solution.

Jun's focus. Awful skill, if I wasn't forced to, I wouldn't even put a single point in it. It lacks the offensive spike of power that jun is mainly used for.

However, because of this new level cap, we have to completely change useless skills to actually be good, for example:

Focus: Reduces melee damage dealt to Jun by 15 for 4 turns. During this time, Jun may select a target for enrage. In addition, Jun will now gain 2 stacks of blindspot for every use of enrage.
  Posted on August 12, 2013 at 5:32 PM
#39
3er123, The Flaming Medic of the Senboku

Contribution: 24 (21 + 3)
Joined: September 8, 2012
Nerf Kudoku :( That's all
  Posted on August 12, 2013 at 6:37 PM
#40
Nestec, Dreamer

Contribution: 1,507 (1,327 + 180)
Joined: January 31, 2011
Ryu wrote:

I think character skills not worth leveling should be focused on. Everyone is finding "the best" character builds, and some characters aren't even having some skills considered because they are too weak compared to the others. I think the skills never considered should get a slight boost, so there is more of a trade off, and so players who do build that way aren't making a mistake.

Personally I couldn't mention any problem skills as I don't play much, just pointing out that others should discuss it.

EDIT
Meant a boost to the lvl 3 version of the skill btw.


I think this is an awesome idea. The way it is now because of the level cap, players are punished for not following the "optimal build," which is ironic because the level cap was meant to encourage customization. The best way for us to tackle this is to observe each case of "obvious builds" and take a look to see if there are any dud skills.

Roach, I don't understand why you say this isn't an effective solution, unless you're suggesting that in your example, Focus becomes overpowered.

EDIT: Also, I want to point out that not as many characters have an "obvious, most-optimal build" as you might think. Just from discussions in the chat I've seen that many characters are going to end up having a roughly 50-50 split on TWO different builds considered optimal. These cases should be left alone, because I believe these are the ones which best reflect the customization intended by the level cap.
  Posted on August 12, 2013 at 6:38 PM
2 thumbs up
#41
Nihilus, Warbringer

Contribution: 167 (161 + 6)
Joined: February 23, 2010
The dojo cost to retrain is too high.
Every time whem we have a balance change, we will need to spend a lot of gold to fix up the character.
And it's not all, with lower prices, the players can change the character skill to combine with a specific team, giving the game a lot more customisation.
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
-Friedrich Nietzsche
  Posted on August 12, 2013 at 6:56 PM
#42
Zadion, The Twisted Child of Death

Contribution: 1,077 (757 + 320)
Joined: February 22, 2010
crazymonkey3 wrote:

Anybody else think Amaya's protector sucks?

Level 1: 25 DD 4 CD
Level 2: 25 DD, renews, 4 CD
Level 3: 35 DD, renews, 4 CD

Its absolutly worthless to upgrade that skill. Maybe make it so that level 2 and 3 switch places (meaning it renews on level 3). Cause right now who needs renewing when it has a 4 cd. Most skill are able to take it down in 1 turn and not to mention the fact her protector comes BEFORE battle armor if she has it.


Worthless change. No matter what you do to Ethereal Protector, no one is going to do more than put one point into it, because even the LV3 version sucks. 3/1/3/1 is Amaya's build.

Does anyone have any idea how long I've been complaining about how useless that skill is? Midnight Massacre is insane, and Night Rain is great too (though a little bit easy to counter), but her protector sucks. If I were to check the old OBD thread, I'd probably see posts from myself advocating buffs for it from well over a year ago. Pre-RPG, her character stats were under 45%, so no one can say she isn't UP.

Her protector is useless, period. If we want to make another Amaya build more viable, we need to make the protector better. It should either stack instead of renew, or it should give her 5-10 DR.
Nestec wrote:


EDIT: Also, I want to point out that not as many characters have an "obvious, most-optimal build" as you might think. Just from discussions in the chat I've seen that many characters are going to end up having a roughly 50-50 split on TWO different builds considered optimal. These cases should be left alone, because I believe these are the ones which best reflect the customization intended by the level cap.


This is true, yet I disagree. Having two equally good builds isn't much customization. It would be ideal if each character could have three worthwhile builds. Takeo might be a good example here. I see a lot of players using 3/2/2/1, but 2/3/2/1 and 2/2/3/1 are both just as viable, IMO.

hello, it's me. i was wondering if after all these years you'd like to meet
  Posted on August 12, 2013 at 11:09 PM
2 thumbs up
#43
Roach, The Masked Samurai of the Red Dawn

Contribution: 1,303 (1,108 + 195)
Joined: February 17, 2010
Nestec wrote:


(...)

I think this is an awesome idea. The way it is now because of the level cap, players are punished for not following the "optimal build," which is ironic because the level cap was meant to encourage customization. The best way for us to tackle this is to observe each case of "obvious builds" and take a look to see if there are any dud skills.

Roach, I don't understand why you say this isn't an effective solution, unless you're suggesting that in your example, Focus becomes overpowered.

EDIT: Also, I want to point out that not as many characters have an "obvious, most-optimal build" as you might think. Just from discussions in the chat I've seen that many characters are going to end up having a roughly 50-50 split on TWO different builds considered optimal. These cases should be left alone, because I believe these are the ones which best reflect the customization intended by the level cap.

If the focus is to make the worst skills even stronger at level 3, who is to say the other two skills won't fall behind?

Who is to say the newly changed level 3 of the most useless skill becomes the new standard?

It's very hard to actually balance everything based on levels. As much as people want to think levels are creating customization, it's actually quite the opposite.

There have been three categories so far form what I've experienced. Characters with very easy to see optimal builds, which are actually the most common that I've seen. For example, Jun, Jyouzu, Niwa, etc.

The more uncommon types I've seen are those that have probably around two build paths, where it can really go one way or another. For example, Takeo, Yukigaaru, etc.

And lastly, the extremely rare cases where it is very very hard to see what is most optimal. Don't be fooled, as this isn't a case of this character having lots of customization as much as it is that the character is gimped from the level cap more than anything else. Examples include Kamiko, Ikuchi, etc.

Nihilus wrote:

Every time whem we have a balance change, we will need to spend a lot of gold to fix up the character.

Fear not, Yukigaaru has stated that balance updates will also be released with full resetting of your characters, just for those purposes.
  Posted on August 13, 2013 at 5:36 AM
#44
elamento12, The Demonic Child of the Firehawk

Contribution: 1,860 (1,744 + 116)
Joined: February 17, 2010
I like everyones idea to nerf Judgement but I believe the best idea is to make it not stack off of tactic skills. People like Yugana stand no chance because they have to prep and it stacks very fast, other than that I think its a fine skill if the opponent doesnt let him get out of control.
  Posted on August 13, 2013 at 5:43 AM
#45
Petipuf, The Manipulative Saint

Contribution: 45 (41 + 4)
Joined: April 26, 2010
Zadion wrote:


(...)

Worthless change. No matter what you do to Ethereal Protector, no one is going to do more than put one point into it, because even the LV3 version sucks. 3/1/3/1 is Amaya's build.

Does anyone have any idea how long I've been complaining about how useless that skill is? Midnight Massacre is insane, and Night Rain is great too (though a little bit easy to counter), but her protector sucks. If I were to check the old OBD thread, I'd probably see posts from myself advocating buffs for it from well over a year ago. Pre-RPG, her character stats were under 45%, so no one can say she isn't UP.

Her protector is useless, period. If we want to make another Amaya build more viable, we need to make the protector better. It should either stack instead of renew, or it should give her 5-10 DR.


(...)

This is true, yet I disagree. Having two equally good builds isn't much customization. It would be ideal if each character could have three worthwhile builds. Takeo might be a good example here. I see a lot of players using 3/2/2/1, but 2/3/2/1 and 2/2/3/1 are both just as viable, IMO.


Well tbh I put 3 points in it cuz I am noob and thought by "refresh" it meant that when it's destroyed, it comes back right away. Didn't understand it was still restricted by its c/d....lol.