Topic: The new rarity system

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  Posted on November 26, 2013 at 6:22 AM
9 thumbs up
#1
zacrathedemon5, The Manipulative Defender of Santi

Contribution: 225 (171 + 54)
Joined: February 19, 2010
The more I've been playing, trying to increase my rarity with this new system, the more I've begun to see it as a definite problem. The rarity system is terrible for the game and needs to be reverted IMMEDIATELY back to how it was before.

I've been stuck in the general area of 140 rarity for about a month, losing one battle after winning a few which resets it all. Is this because I'm a bad player? I certainly hope not. I've been with WoN since 2010, after all, and with the arena gameplay system in general since 2008. I like to think that after 5 years of continuous play and experience, I've learned a thing or two.
So, then, why have I been stuck? Simple: because I've been trying too much to have fun. Yep. I've been testing different teams and tactics, instead of abusing one good one I have over and over and over to grind and increase my rarity. Shame on me for not wanting WoN to become repetitive and to actually enjoy myself while playing the game. Shame on me.
If I sounded like kind of a jerk there, sorry, but that's what this new rarity system is telling me. No way around it. Shame on me for wanting to test teams against the AI and enjoy the game.

It's even worse if you're a newbie and don't have any known reliable teams to use. Your rarity cannot increase unless you consistently win against Normal AI with little to no losses or mistakes. This doesn't sound very likely for a newbie to pull off, does it? I guarantee you they won't want to put in the several weeks' amount of time it would take to start getting used to it, either, and I don't blame them. Why not? Because they have so little incentive to start and keep playing as it is. Every veteran player received starter packs upon the relaunch; the newbies will not obtain such an incentive. They have to start from absolute scratch with this flawed rarity system and these jacked character prices, grinding against an AI in a multiplayer game for hours upon end so they can get to the point of even BEGINNING to enjoy the game.

You have to focus on increasing the player base before absolutely anything else at this point. People were unlocking characters too quickly? Sorry, but too bad. By trying to prevent this from happening, trying to prevent die-hard WoNers (with likely way too much free time on their hands, considering how quickly content was unlocked, meaning they should be considered the exception and NOT the norm) from unlocking content quickly and altering the rarity system, you have butchered any potential hope you had of introducing any new players to WoN. You're relying on this steady average of 120 or so daily players to keep coming back to play your game without taking new players into consideration. Inevitably, this player base will start to dwindle. It's already beginning. I'm getting sick of the game because of this new rarity system, and I'm not the only one.

If you continue to ignore this problem, the game will die out again, this time likely for good. Please don't let that happen. Start by reverting the rarity system back to how it was and giving new players a sliver of a chance to feel like they can accomplish something by putting their time and effort into it (which will also result in less unnecessary frustration and ruined enjoyment for current players who still have characters left to unlock). Without any question, this new rarity system needs to go.


Lastly, I just to make this clear: I do appreciate all of the work you guys put into this game. It's clear that you try your hardest, and visible effort is seen everywhere from the gameplay to the website to the forum layout to...everything. You have provided us with this game that has provided so many hours of entertainment in the past, and I sincerely thank you for it. I'm just concerned about certain things, like this new rarity system, and how it will affect the game in the long run. It's not just frustrating me while I play; it's downright worrying me.

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  Posted on November 26, 2013 at 6:31 AM
#2
Nori, Wolf of the Seishin

Contribution: 2,123 (1,747 + 376)
Joined: November 24, 2010
The old system wasn't viable, you may go on about how it's just the elite few, but it wasn't. A lot of people were unlocking characters as they were released, playing them for a few days, then going back to waiting for the next release. That will kill WoN. There is no point bringing in new players if we have no retention, nothing to keep them going on once they've unlocked the characters.

Now, I'm not saying the new rarity is flawless, far from, and yes it needs to be worked on. But reverting to the old system gets us nowhere. We need to find a system that is easy to start with and gradually increases in difficulty as you reach the higher rarity. That's why the rarity loss on defeat is set as a ratio of your rarity, it means that at lower levels you lose less than you do at high levels and it prevents people from just sitting idly at max rarity and surrendering until they find what they want whenever new content is released.

If you have suggestions on how to IMPROVE the system, we're all ears. WoN:R is still in a formative stage, open to change assuming it makes sense to implement from our side as well as yours. Reverting does not make sense on our side, so it's not on the table.

Big thanks to JoeTurtle for this one^^

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  Posted on November 26, 2013 at 6:51 AM
2 thumbs up
#3
Salsaman, The Ruthless General of the Military

Contribution: 162 (86 + 76)
Joined: October 23, 2012
Nori wrote:

The old system wasn't viable, you may go on about how it's just the elite few, but it wasn't. A lot of people were unlocking characters as they were released, playing them for a few days, then going back to waiting for the next release. That will kill WoN. There is no point bringing in new players if we have no retention, nothing to keep them going on once they've unlocked the characters.

Now, I'm not saying the new rarity is flawless, far from, and yes it needs to be worked on. But reverting to the old system gets us nowhere. We need to find a system that is easy to start with and gradually increases in difficulty as you reach the higher rarity. That's why the rarity loss on defeat is set as a ratio of your rarity, it means that at lower levels you lose less than you do at high levels and it prevents people from just sitting idly at max rarity and surrendering until they find what they want whenever new content is released.

If you have suggestions on how to IMPROVE the system, we're all ears. WoN:R is still in a formative stage, open to change assuming it makes sense to implement from our side as well as yours. Reverting does not make sense on our side, so it's not on the table.


I have a suggestion, for players who just want to test new teams/characters how about adding a battle option where you will not gain rarities/recruitments/gold/experiences BUT will not lose rarity should you lose a battle. I realize this may be considered a waste of time to some players but for other more competitive players this would be a great way to test against the ai and/or if possible, how about a option where players can even choose the characters the ai will use?! I don't know if that can be done but I'm just throwing that one out there.
  Posted on November 26, 2013 at 7:04 AM
#4
zacrathedemon5, The Manipulative Defender of Santi

Contribution: 225 (171 + 54)
Joined: February 19, 2010
Nori wrote:

The old system wasn't viable, you may go on about how it's just the elite few, but it wasn't. A lot of people were unlocking characters as they were released, playing them for a few days, then going back to waiting for the next release. That will kill WoN. There is no point bringing in new players if we have no retention, nothing to keep them going on once they've unlocked the characters.

Now, I'm not saying the new rarity is flawless, far from, and yes it needs to be worked on. But reverting to the old system gets us nowhere. We need to find a system that is easy to start with and gradually increases in difficulty as you reach the higher rarity. That's why the rarity loss on defeat is set as a ratio of your rarity, it means that at lower levels you lose less than you do at high levels and it prevents people from just sitting idly at max rarity and surrendering until they find what they want whenever new content is released.

If you have suggestions on how to IMPROVE the system, we're all ears. WoN:R is still in a formative stage, open to change assuming it makes sense to implement from our side as well as yours. Reverting does not make sense on our side, so it's not on the table.

In terms of suggestions: would it be feasible to have a rarity increase in victories against Easy AI, even if it has to be very small? This would help new players progress a bit more comfortably, while keeping more experience players from abusing it.

Also, Salsaman's idea may hold some merit as well. It would be great to have a simple team-testing mode like that. There wouldn't be any abuse of such a system because nothing would be gained from it; it would simply exist to reliably test teams (primarily against the Normal/Hard AI), and that's it.

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  Posted on November 26, 2013 at 7:28 AM
2 thumbs up
#5
Murasaki_Karasu, The Trueborn Savior of the Ancestors

Contribution: 499 (416 + 83)
Joined: February 17, 2010
The only real problem I have with the new rarity system is the 1/6 ratio upon a loss. This to me is like building a sand castle on the beach only to have someone run over and stomp the *?#% out of it.

Would you want to rebuild that castle? Likely not. Getting more severely punished the more effort you put in is not the way to go. I have 2 proposals.

Proposal 1: Set the loss ratio based on the player's level.
• Level 1-10: Loss a Ratio of 1/16
• Level 11-25: Loss Ratio of 1/12
• Level 26-50: Loss Ratio of 1/8

Proposal 2: Remove the 1/6th ratio entirely and replace it with a set %. Maybe -16% on Normal and -32% on Hard. With this, if you Lose one, you need only Win 2 to make up for it.
  Posted on November 26, 2013 at 7:34 AM
1 thumbs up
#6
LosenFlowers, Veteran

Contribution: 1,610 (1,504 + 106)
Joined: February 19, 2011
If you want a (fairly) quick and simply way to get rarity is through Tournaments - you can only gain things through completing the tournaments; you can't lose rarity from tournaments (I think). A measly 5 gold can get you substantial gold returns and/or rarity bonuses.

I basically just do tourneys as it is more efficient (for a casual player like myself) to farm rarity and/or gold.

[Side note: I guess I'll have to agree with what Nori said - despite the state of the current system and how I despise it, from the POV of maintaining and engaging players, the new system is far more effective than the old system]
It's so sad what happened to this game :(
  Posted on November 26, 2013 at 3:41 PM
#7
Hellawyer, The Supreme Demon, Rank 1 of PLS-2

Contribution: 937 (843 + 94)
Joined: May 5, 2011
I don't think this system is bad and I don't agree that it "needs to be reverted IMMEDIATELY back to how it was before". There's no fun unlocking rare chars if everyone does too, like it was before. Every game has a competition, you must be good to get the best things on the game.
I have no problem keeping my rarity at 320% and I always use only chars that aren't on lvl 7. Sometimes I lose and go down a bit, but is easy to recover. I still lack 5 chars, if I'm not mistaken, but I'm getting them on a regular basis and soon I'll have them all. The problem, before Draft tourneys, was the gold, but now its ok too.
So I don't agree about changing the system. Is my opinion. But I support the idea of having a place where we can test teams without interfering in the rarity.
  Posted on November 26, 2013 at 4:04 PM
2 thumbs up
#8
Zadion, The Twisted Child of Death

Contribution: 1,077 (757 + 320)
Joined: February 22, 2010
Nori wrote:

The old system wasn't viable, you may go on about how it's just the elite few, but it wasn't.


Your post has a valid point, but I feel I should remind you that Zac was very much correct when he said it was a group of players with WAY too much free time. I remember back on the test site, I no-lifed the RPG for three weeks solid before hitting the cap level, and I didn't even have every character unlocked yet. And when I say no-lifed, I mean a good 4 hours a day into the game at least.

When the RPG became live, there were a ton of players that were on here a good 8 hours a day or more just grinding the RPG, leveling up and unlocking characters. They probably invested a bare minimum of 40 hours into the game before unlocking every character. Now when you consider the average game you PAY for gives you a good 80 hours of playtime and you generally have to put down $60 dollars on that game (in USD), I'd say 40 hours of play time on unlocking characters alone (and this does NOT factor in the PvP and team building possibilities) is GREAT for a free online flash game. I implore you guys to remember, this is an online flash game.

The old rarity system was flawed, yes, but this one is not remotely better. Murasaki is legit with his comparison, and let me tell you something: nobody, NOBODY enjoys putting effort into a game just to have the effort completely undone so easily.

The new system forces you to play on hard, which was originally meant to be a difficulty reserved for players well above average in skill (I distinctively recall Hikaru telling me that hard difficulty even gave him a lot of trouble). For the players with that skill, grinding hard to increase rarity faster and unlock characters faster is great. But not everyone has that skill, not everyone can, and this game should still encourage experimentation (as in, not having to abuse cheap teams). Players playing on easy and normal should be able to unlock ALL the same characters that players on hard can, but just with a longer time investment.

I'd rather invest more time into a sure thing (because I'm far less likely to lose against easy than normal or normal than hard). Being forced to win several battles to make up for one loss is positively stupid, even if it is to unlock one of the game's highest rarity characters... especially when we take into consideration the fact that the game's highest rarity characters are not remotely stronger than the lowest rarity ones due to the game's need for balance (in fact, the higher rarity ones tend to be worse).

hello, it's me. i was wondering if after all these years you'd like to meet
  Posted on November 26, 2013 at 7:54 PM
#9
Nestec, Dreamer

Contribution: 1,507 (1,327 + 180)
Joined: January 31, 2011
The rarity system is definitely too punishing right now, but the rarity gained from tournaments is pretty effective for alleviating this. This was actually a genius strategy by the admins -- because tourneys offer the fastest, most effective way of building rarity, players are thus encouraged to play more and more PvP, which is exactly what this game was missing these past couple months. So I'll say kudos for that, but I would definitely say that prices are still too high and the rarity toll is still too high.

And to the idea about a testing mode, that is an excellent idea. As it is now, there really is no way to test out new teams without jeopardizing anything, aside from private battles.
  Posted on November 26, 2013 at 11:31 PM
#10
Salsaman, The Ruthless General of the Military

Contribution: 162 (86 + 76)
Joined: October 23, 2012
Nestec wrote:

And to the idea about a testing mode, that is an excellent idea. As it is now, there really is no way to test out new teams without jeopardizing anything, aside from private battles.


Thank you! I really think if the admins were to take this into consideration there would be less problems with the current rarity system. And there's no possibly way it could be abused by more experienced players!
  Posted on November 26, 2013 at 11:49 PM
#11
naruto-leaf, Swordsman

Contribution: 2,005 (1,806 + 199)
Joined: January 28, 2011
Testing new teams idea is something that should be taken a look at.

I believe that the admins wanted to make the rarity system something to encourage people to try hard. Because some characters have a high rarity, the players are encouraged to play hard to get that character. The best players can get there and buy these characters, but anyone else would have a hard time. This can get boring and people will quit trying.

This is why we need to have some type of battle where we can test teams and do battles without losing anything. Then when the player thinks he is ready he can go and try to do battles for characters and the rarity system.
Removed for ???
  Posted on November 27, 2013 at 12:03 AM
#12
Nori, Wolf of the Seishin

Contribution: 2,123 (1,747 + 376)
Joined: November 24, 2010
The penalty for losses can't be something that is too easily negated. Then we end up with what we had before of people sitting on the top of the rarity scale and surrendering to find what they want then winning a few games to hit the top again, and that's can't happen as it again ruins the point of the game if you're not actually playing it.

Training mode I can't comment on, but it does sound like a good idea.

I do like the idea of making max rarity achievable on all (or at least normal and hard) difficulties. I mean, with tournament rarity gain I do believe it is possible to find all characters on all difficulties, not sure you'd have to ask someone who knows these things.

Big thanks to JoeTurtle for this one^^

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  Posted on November 27, 2013 at 3:25 AM
#13
Salsaman, The Ruthless General of the Military

Contribution: 162 (86 + 76)
Joined: October 23, 2012
Nori wrote:

The penalty for losses can't be something that is too easily negated. Then we end up with what we had before of people sitting on the top of the rarity scale and surrendering to find what they want then winning a few games to hit the top again, and that's can't happen as it again ruins the point of the game if you're not actually playing it.

Training mode I can't comment on, but it does sound like a good idea.

I do like the idea of making max rarity achievable on all (or at least normal and hard) difficulties. I mean, with tournament rarity gain I do believe it is possible to find all characters on all difficulties, not sure you'd have to ask someone who knows these things.


Lol Lets get rid of the surrender option!
  Posted on November 27, 2013 at 3:54 AM
#14
Murasaki_Karasu, The Trueborn Savior of the Ancestors

Contribution: 499 (416 + 83)
Joined: February 17, 2010
Salsaman wrote:


(...)

Lol Lets get rid of the surrender option!


Might as well. Nobody in their right mind surrenders anymore anyway due to how detrimental the loss ratio is.

Also, I do want the loss penalty to stay, I just think it should be reduced a bit, but not removed completely.
  Posted on November 27, 2013 at 5:20 PM
#15
Nestec, Dreamer

Contribution: 1,507 (1,327 + 180)
Joined: January 31, 2011
Lmao do NOT get rid of the surrender option. Don't force me to play through a battle that I know I won't win because I forgot to swap.